Marriage problems

[Dragonfly]

My family just found out that my daughter-in-law has been cheating on my son. There are two young children involved in this. My son was willing to work it out. She wants no part of that and wants out.

A plus is that my daughter-in-law and son both really love their kids.

My son is no saint and is not always easy to live with. He has a steady job as a labor foreman. My son likes the job he does and makes good money. My daughter-in-law works three evenings a week. It is a low paid job. That doesn't matter. The guy she is cheating with works at this same place she does and thats where they met. The guy lives in the basement of his mother's house. He has a young daughter. He works as a DJ on some weekends.

My son & daughter-in-law own a semi-detached house, a new travel trailer and an expensive used truck. My son wants to be fair and split everything down the middle. My daughter-in-law has never been realistic with money. She cannot have credit cards. She maxes them out and then doesn't pay. My son has an account in his name only or the money would be gone. My son is very tired at the end of the week. It is mental and physical work. She leaves my son alone with the kids and she goes out dancing or doing other things with her friends. She hardly does things with him.

My daughter-in-law thinks that when she leaves my son she is going to have such a better life. She is going to get a rude awakening when my son's support and money aren't  there anymore.

My son is naturally extremely hurt. So am I and his two sisters. We all adore the children. My granddaughter knows that she won't be living with Daddy anymore. As you can understand she is extremely upset. She is upset that she won't see Oma or her two aunties any more.

I could go on and on. I am very sad that my husband is gone. At least he won't have to go through this. He would be devestated.

I am sure I am not the first one to go through this.

Dragonfly

[paulm]

Hello Dragonfly. I split this off of the original thread as I thought that the topic was very important and that it deserved it's own thread. Plus you had asked for any ideas and I didn't want it to get lost in the middle of another thread. If I shouldn't have moved it, please let me know and I can reverse it.

 What follows may be painful for you to read and you may disagree with some or all of what I have said. You will almost certainly say that parts of it are not fair. However I mean no disrespect and when it comes to marriage breakups, the law is not always fair. 

 I certainly can sympathize with you and your family over this matter, it will be tough on everyone

 I can't give you great advice, but I would suggest that your son immediately find the best divorce lawyer that he can. Often the one who gets the best lawyer and gets to the lawyer first has a much better chance of a good outcome.  (well there are no good outcomes , only some less worse than others). I've seen far too many people A) wait and see if they can get back together before they get a lawyer B) figure lawyers are too expensive.

 Going to see a lawyer doesn't mean that they can't get back together,separation agreements can always be ripped up, but it does give you an early start on what to document etc.

 Plus if she is feeling the least bit guilty over her part in this(and she may not be) , the chances are that she may sign a more favourable separation agreement. Later on,  when words get bitter, that's when lawyers really get expensive.

 As much as anyone would feel bitter in your shoes, I've found that the best outcome is when the adults don't show their bitterness or anger around the kids. I've seen that boomarang and the ex-spouse use comments made by family members in court to alter visiting priviledges.  And the kids will tell mommy what someone said about them. Whether Mommy is right or wrong, young kids still love mommy and tend to tell her everything that they find worrisome.

 In today's world, there is no person who was right or wrong in the marriage breakup, unless some form of abuse can be proved. Judges tend to split things 50-50 and it doesn't matter who paid for what or how much income someone has or doesn't have. For that matter your son may be called on not only to provide child support, but also spousal support while the kids are young.  Doesn't always seem fair when one person left to go live with someone else, but as I said, what the courts have determined to be fair, is far different than what someone else might think.

 Tell your son to see a lawyer before he starts to split anything 50-50. Several of my friends did that, without proper documentation and later when the short of money ex spouse dragged them into court, they then had to pay more.   One guy I know even lost 50% of the value of his house a second time as he had no proper documentation as to what he had given his ex wife the money for the previous time. 

 Look after yourself. Hopefully your grandkids will still get to see you, maybe even more so when the ex daughter-in-law and new boy friend want time alone together.  It's fun to play, but moving down in the world and not having much money can bring a harsh reality to a person life. Grandma's is a great place to dump kids when you are broke and still want to go out.

  Be there for your son and provide emotional support, but be careful about the advice that you give him in regards to what to do with their combined assets, income, support payments etc. .  The law is so complex and tangled, a lawyer is the only one that can advise him properly.  I hate paying the fees that they charge, but I could write here forever about people that I have known that ended up paying far more than a lawyer would charge, because they thought they could handle it on their own.

 Once again, look after yourself. Good Luck and don't hesitate to vent out here. Take Care. paul m

 

[Dragonfly]

Paul,

I thank you for giving some really good insight as to what can happen when a couple decides to part ways from a marriage. I am glad that you gave my post a thread of its own. This is a painful situation to me and my two daughters. I don't disagree with anything you said and am glad you wrote it.

A big question I have to ask is: My son works for a big construction company. He thinks that his company, union (I don't know which one) may pay for some costs incurred by this separation, divorce. He says he could probably get a lawyer through them. Again I don't know if this is true and if so would they have good lawyers. Anyone who has had experience with this situation could you please tell me know how to get a really good lawyer. Possible cost. I realize that maybe hard for someone to say. My son is going to talk to someone he works with who is going through the same situation.

I am not very knowledgeable about this whole  separation, divorce situation. I realize that the law is not always fair.

My two daughters and I have agreed that we will not talk about this situation in front of the two young children.

 Both the children go swimming and the Mom almost always takes the kids. My son does not always get home in time to and see the children swim. My grandson plays hockey. Again the Mom takes him tohockey. This is probably not relevant. Grammie as the kids call her (wife's mother) is almost always at each activity. I only go once in a while due to my health. I very much want to support and see my grandkids in these activities. I am scared to see my daughter-in-law and her mother there. I am afraid. I have quite a temper and don't let people walk on me these days. I don't want to lose my temper and say things I shouldn't. That would not be good and it would be terrible for the situation. I have to remain civil. That is going to be very hard. Again I don't know if this is relevant. I pay for the swimming and hockey for my grandkids. My son and daughter-in-law have been very appreciative of this. I will continue to support them financially with this but only through my son.

My daughter-in-law may end up living with the kids with her parents. This cannot be assumed. My son maybe with me.

There are so many if's and but's. This situation is in the very, very early stages.

I can probably help my son financially to a certain extent. I have to be careful with this. I have to look after myself also.

I think my daughter-in-law will let us see the grandkids, niece, nephew. As you say Paul things could get really nasty. My granddaughter has already expressed the worry that she may not see me, Oma, or er aunties. All three of us adore and are very good with these kids. They will ask to see us.

I could go on and on. I have already been very wordy. Thanks to anyone who will read this post.

Paul, I will definitely tell my son to get a very good lawyer soon. Thanks again Paul for your advice and support. I really appreciate. If anyone else would like to comment or share information on this separation, divorce situation effecting my son it would be most welcome.

I am sure that I will be posting about this situation again.

Dragonfly

[LuckyLou]

Hi dragonfly
I think Paul gave u good advice hire a lawyer quickly! I can't really add anything as I have no experience just wanted u to know I would be sending u positive thoughts and lots of hugs!

[Peace]

I'm really sorry you and your family are going through this, Dragonfly.

My instincts are that you will still be a part of your grandchildren's lives. This will be very traumatic and confusing for them. Hopefully their mom will do what is best for them.

I don't blame you one bit for wanting to give your daughter-in-law a piece of your mind. Your loved ones, as well as yourself, are being hurt. It's perfectly natural to feel the way you do.

My thinking is that you might want to avoid your daughter-in-law while your emotions are still so raw. Two things could happen if you get upset with her. She could then use the grandchildren as a pawn and try to limit the time they spend with you and your family. It would also be upsetting for your grandchildren if you were to confront your daughter-in-law either in front of them, or at one of their events. Children are so conscientious of how others see them.

Fight hard to remain a big part of their lives. They need you and they need as little disruption as possible. Do your best to not question them about their mom or to speak ill of their mom in front of them. I'm speaking from experience based on what happened after my parents separated. It was comforting to me to be able to have my mom's parents, who had always been a big part of my life, to call for help.

We're here for you. Hugs.

[paulm]

Hello Dragonfly. Thx for the Thx.  In regards to employer or union subsidized lawyers, he will have to talk with co-workers to get an idea about how good or bad they are. Unfortunately some are great and some not so much.

 Peace has given you good advice about staying away if you think you may say something.

 In regards to the courts being fair. I agree that they are sometimes very unfair, but courts have this modern view that for better or for worse are merely words.  They tend to take the view that people are liable to grow apart for various reasons and that blame should not be attached when this occurs.  I'm not saying that this should always be true, but it is a modern reality whether I like it or not.

 In regards to costs. When your son talks to a lawyer, the first thing that he should ask about are the fees for an uncontested divorce. If it gets contested the costs will be huge.  The biggest unexpected costs that comes as a shock for most people is if the ex spouse gets sole custody of the children.  You can find out details at
http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/fl-df/child-enfant/fcsg-lfpae/2011/index.html

 and then scrolling down to Ontario, 1-4 children.  If a person makes around 70,000 a yr and has 3 kids, they can expect to pay 1356 per mth.  This causes a lot of people to pause and decide whether or not to go for sole custody and hire a nanny.

 In a shared custody case, you take the ones person income minus the other persons income to figure out the net income. Say your son made 70,000 and his ex 20,000 the difference is 50,000 and the tables can be used to figure out the amount of support, about 1000 in this example.   Those are just examples. The judge can award more or in rare cases, less.

 If your son has family benefits through his workplace for his ex-spouse and his children, tell him not to cancel them until he speaks with his lawyer. I know he won't for the kids, but some guys like to cut their ex off of the benefits only to find that they are sometimes responsible for her benefits too. 

 A fairly good resource that explains the terms better than I do and explains the laws fairly clearly is  http://www.canadiandivorcelaws.com/spousal-support/   , just click on the various categories at the top of the page.  They also have a section on alimony.

 Also warn him about signing any separation agreement before seeking a lawyers advice. Some parts of a separation may seem like a good deal, but when all the legalities are figured in they can cost more than a person thinks.

 One final word(s), and again no judgement is intended. Parents love their kids. We ,or at least, I , tend to think that the other person is 100% at fault, when a marriage or relationship goes sour or has problems So while I'm sure that you are quite upset with the whole situation, I'm sure that your daughter-laws, mother is going to take her daughters side. Rightly or wrongly. 

 I can't speak for anyone else, but sometimes I have to remember that my own Mother-in-law(who is a really nice person) is going to nearly always side with my wife(which makes me mad at times) My wife is a great person, but she does have flaws that sometimes can drive me a little crazy (very short drive LOL) . When my kids have problems, I have to be very careful that I don't see just their side of things as well.  So while you can think harsh thoughts about your daughter-in-law, please remember that no matter what she has done,her mother is going to still love her and by default side with her in any major decisions. It's the way nature created us. Other wise we would never have kid because at some point in our lives our kids  are probably going to cause us many sleepless nights. I did for my parents and now my kids are repaying me  LOL.

 While I hope that this gets settled quickly and to everyone's satisfaction, I'm sure that you will need all the support you can get. So post here freely. From  now on I will try, I repeat try  , to keep my answers a little shorter.Good Luck and  Take Care. paul m.   

 

[Dragonfly]

Thank you Paul, LuckyLou and Peace. I appreciate your advice, support and caring. The way I write this may be a little mixed up.

I spoke to my son last night. He says that his wife truly wants to go ahead with the separation. They have been unhappy together for a long time.

I spoke to my caseworker yesterday. She says that he should check out the Employee Assistance Program first. Advice from them. His best course of action as what to do. Of course based on what both of them wants. My caseworker has been through a separation. My son says he will go through the separation procedure with his wife. Applying, etc.

His wife says she will not expect alimony from him. She wants him to have some kind of a life too. There may be some guilt on her part for having her affair. She says that my son is a very good father. She will expect child support from him. My son knows that he has to support the kids. He will do so.

Again I have to say that my son and his wife both love their children very much. I know that my son is not an easy customer to live with. He is moody and stubborn (like me). My husband and I had a very tough time with him when he was a teenager. Deep down he does have a kind heart. My son realizes that what has been going on in the marriage has not been all her fault. I have sided with his wife when how he acted or what he said to her was not right. I guess that they are not on the same page anymore.

His wife has a very big heart. She would help anyone out in a heart beat. She is very loyal to her friends. I admire her for taking her friends kids camping, babysitting them and being kind and loving to them. The parents of these kids don't do much with them.

I realize I have to put my anger aside especially for the sake of the children. They have to be protected first and foremost. Yes, I can see that of course her mother is going to side with her daughter as I am doing with my son.

My daughter-in-law's parents are good people. They love the grandkids too. We have camped with her parents quite a few times. They have been very pleasant to me and my daughters and my husband when he was alive. Actually we introduced them to camping and they love it.
My daughter in law's mother has already suggested that we might want to take the grandkids on a holiday. Of course, my son would come too.
That shows that there will most likely  not be a problem about seeing the kids.

My son asked me if he could move in with me for a short while after the house has been sold, etc. and he can make plans as to where to live. I told him I already thought of that and it would be fine. He was very relieved by that. My caseworker says it may not be a bad think since I get lonely being on my own.

I will not speak ill of his wife in front of the children. One of the grandkids said something negative about his mommy. My son said that that was not nice. I agree.

Again I could go on and on. I believe things will fall into place.

Some of you are probably wondering why I am writing at this time of the night. You would think that it is because of the whole situation. That is not true. A little maybe but I have been having a health problem which keeps me awake. I usually catch up on my sleep later.

Again thank you everyone for being so caring. That is what I really love about this forum. You are my friends.

P.S. A big one I have to work on is being less judgemental of people.

Dragonfly

[paulm]

Hello Dragonfly. I didn't see anything unusual about the time you posted. I can't sleep for more than about 4 hrs at a time, and I live by napping.

 I'm glad that your son is trying to get everything settled as quickly and with as few of arguments as possible. However before they sell the house he may want to get a legal opinion on that. More than a few of my aquaintances have found out that a judge may order the children to be raised in a place similar to what they were used too. Example, if they were used to living in a 3 bedroom house , then if after the separation, they have to live in a two bedroom apt the judge may take exception to that, Well not really the judge, but whichever lawyer the ex wife gets.  Especially if she has sole or primary custody of the kids.

 In regards to working on not being too judgmental. I can't speak for others on this forum, but that is something that I have to work on constantly. From my observations of the people in my neigbourhood, a few more people should be working on it too.  Good Luck with everything. Take Care. paul m

[Dragonfly]

I have spoken to my son and he intends to get a lawyer and have him or her go over the separation agreement before he signs anything.

I have to be very careful around my son. If he wants to talk I will listen to him and perhaps make a few comments if appropriate.

My son has told me sometimes he doesn't want to talk about the situation. I have told him that if I say something about the situation and he doesn't want to hear it at that time to tell me off.

Dragonfly